Before you get too far in to this let me assure you that this is not an article bashing Youth Specialties, the National Youth Workers Convention or any speakers in particular. As usual at this convention I have had a great time and been challenged in the ways that I needed and it has been a great time. We were told at the first session of the convention that we wouldn't agree with everything that was being said. There is a whole lot I agreed with. I applaud the decision to bring Ted and Gayle Haggard to the convention. I think the story of grace and redemption is something the church needs to see modeled. I liked having Doug Fields there again as his message is always a great reminder to youth workers about how we need to be aware of ourselves and not get caught up too much believing we are the only ones who are "saving" kids.
Last night I struggled with the big room sessions. What got me started was the running commentary I was having with my friend Andy Root during the Ted and Gayle Haggard interview. I felt Ted was being contrite and honest in his answers but I also heard a lot of woundedness and fingerpointing being directed at the church. I just got a feeling that he was putting some of the “blame” for his situation and struggle on the church. At one point he even recommended “not” telling people at your church your struggles because they may choose to leverage that against you. It was advocated to go to a licensed therapist because they can’t legally reveal your secrets.
Doug Fields spoke next and his message had some similar jabs at the church. I like Doug and think he has an amazing history and presence in Youth Ministry. His talk was helpful for youth workers to hear but I still felt that there was a part of it that was promoting an unhealthy ecclesiology. He referenced Andy Stanley and his book “Choosing to Cheat:Who wins when family and work collide” and painted a picture that we as youthworkers/pastors need to be on guard against the church that really doesn’t care about us and just wants to work us to the bone and spit us out. He even told a story referencing teenage suicide saying unless a student was going to kill himself he needed to “go home.” I know he was kidding with this story but I think it was too much hyperbole that hurt his intended message for the youth workers in the room.
My struggle with both of these messages is that I think they have at their root an ecclesiological identity issue. These guys are great but both have worked at Mega Churches. Doug for 19 years at Saddleback and Ted at the church he started in Colorado Springs. Both churches are huge, have a ton of programs and they both led large staff and have a ton of responsibilities. But, in both cases they seemed to be promoting a dualistic idea of ecclesiology that somehow shows a separation from the “church” and themselves.
There were 1500+ youth workers in the room who don’t work at churches like either Doug or Ted. Many of those youth workers had never been to a convention like this before and I’m concerned that the message they were hearing is just not helpful to their formation.
Part of what those youth workers could have heard was that the “church’ shouldn’t be trusted and that for them to last they have to learn to say “no” as much as possible because the church doesn’t care about them. I know this wasn’t the intended message from up front but it is the message that could easily be taken away.
My identity as a Youthworker is tied up in my ecclesiological belief that I/We are the church and that I/We need to learn how to do the “work” of the church. What I felt I heard last night was that there is a separation between all of us youthworkers here at the convention and the churches that we are all going back to today.
This wasn't the intended message last night but it still came across. I know that a bunch of people in the audience heard great things about coming to terms with their "stuff" and about having a life outside the organization which was absolutely worth hearing. I'm praying though that we didn't perpetuated the myth that Youth Ministry is not a part of the church or that we as youth workers are not "the church."
Good words Lars – hope you communicate this more broadly. I think ‘church bashing’ is poor way of keeping the issue away from ourselves: “its the big institutions that are killing ministry!” and whatnot. Keep sounding the voice of reason…
Keuss. Not enough time with you here. Thanks for reading and doing all you do.
I’m going to be interested in hearing Ted and Gayle speak at NYWC in Nashville. I read her book and I know I will have more to say on this in late October.
I think there’s a way to be present in a congregation and minister to the church while realizing that self-care might need to come from another congregation or colleagues outside of the church you serve. That’s what was missing in my opinion from Gayle’s book.
That doesn’t mean the church isn’t to be trusted or that the church just someone to put in 80+ hours during the week. The right church cares and nourishes their pastors and youth workers more than they don’t. The church also has the right to hold employees accountable and expect them to have a work ethic.
Sara. Good words. I love the church. Im so glad they were brought here. Transparency is tough. My hope is that everyone here understands we are the church
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Well said–I had some of the same reactions and think that while youth workers often struggle to find a balance between work and family, this is an opportunity for the “church”–the people–to support one another.
(But it probably doesn’t help that along with the professionalization of youth ministry, we’ve sometimes set up expectations of business transactions where ministry is a commodity, instead of a broader understanding of what church means and how the community can journey together.)
Great point. I have great boundaries but I know I am more of an exception than the norm. I love that for whatever reason God has given me a team that I get to model that too and help them grow
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I totally know what you mean… I have been through times where the church I worked in felt like I was a pawn in a game I had no say in whether I played or not… I did end up stepping down as Youth Pastor, but the real key for me was NOT making it a personal thing… I was able to see that the issues were strictly occupational and not personal. By making sure that I loved the Pastoral team, (But not necessarily the way they managed me) I still have a great relationship with this church today… I speak there regularly, and we have even made it our “Family” church now…
It isn’t always easy to focus on the big picture when crazy stuff is in our face, but there IS a big picture and we can manage this time in a Godly way that doesn’t get all anti-church. Isn’t the church the Bride of Christ??? How would you guys feel is someone implied your wife was ugly?
I am a senior pastor (22 years ordained) who attended the NYWC for the first time along with my new Youth Pastor who has been on the job for 2.5 months. It is always amazing to me how people can hear the exact same words coming from someone’s mouth and have such a divergent interpretation of what was said.
Concerning the Haggards, I have a feeling no matter what came out of their mouths there was going to be critical comments. Lars, have you ever had a moral failure while in ministry that the whole church found out about and was forced to resign your position because of it? I have. I went through the discipline process of our denomination and sat on the sidelines for 6 years. God has since called me back into the fray of full time ministry with a church and we have experienced 500% growth in the last six years. But for some people, no matter what I say about my mistakes and failures it will never be enough to satisfy their own sense of justice and judgment. At what point would the words, confessions, aches and pain of the Haggards been sufficient for you to accept them back in the fold and not have a running commentary with a friend of yours while they were speaking? The “world” has it right when they wonder why we, Christians shoot our own wounded soldiers. Can you imagine American soldiers in Iraq shooting one of their own because the soldier had gotten shot by the enemy? We are so quick to judge? Please slow down Lars.
Concerning Doug Fields’ talk… I thought it was spot on! I am thrilled my new youth pastor heard Doug speak. I heard no dualism in his address. And about his “suicidal” comment – he was using humor. I am sorry that the humor of the moment was lost on you. What came across was his wife, his anniversary was so important that he wasn’t going to let anything interrupt it. I applaud his tenacity. Once again… How long have you been in Youth ministry? 30 years? 40 years? Sunday night I heard from a man (Doug Fields)who has incredible passion for kids, Youth Workers, the church, Jesus and his family. I heard from a man who loves the church so much that he wants fellow colleagues to go forth with enthusiasm, excitement and extreme caution while living out this great faith in Jesus Christ. I heard from a man who has experienced all facets of ministry from the glory to the gory. I heard from a man great courage in challenging people to remember the very foundation of the support system we have when we go to the frontlines on ministry… our families.
I heard a lot of other great things from this man.
All I am hearing from you is pot shots from the sidelines. And to paraphrase you… that may not be what you intended in your blog, but that is what I took away.
May God continue to richly bless you in your ministry Lars. It is obvious that you are gifted in many, many ways.
Peace to you and your family.
David- Thank you for your comment. Just to follow up I want you to know Im glad that the Haggards were there. I think one of the biggest failures of the Western Church is how quickly we cast aside those who fail. I think that a message of redemption was well suited for that event as we so often deal with students who will also fail and we will need to love them back into the fold. I felt Gayle was spot on in her words and commitment to her husband. If you reread my post you will see that I didnt take any shots at Ted for what happened or for what he did. My only concern was the way that the church was being portrayed. Dougs follow up message also made me concerned about the church. I love Doug. I love his commitment to Youth Ministry and his long running passion for loving/caring for students. I think he has made great choices to protect and care for his family in the midst of it but I also think that message could be lost on a youth pastor not in the unique situation hes in. Let me say that I am so glad that you went to the conference with your youth pastor. You are an anomaly and thats a huge commitment to make. You probably are making steps to care for your youth pastor and they will be completely blessed because of it. I want to remind you that at the beginning of the convention we were told to not agree with everything that was being said. I agree with Ted being restored. I dont think the interview was focused enough on youth ministry. I agreed with Dougs saying that Youth Workers need to protect their families and to take care of themselves and not get taken advantage of by the church. What I didnt agree with was an us vs them ecclesiological model. Thats one of my biggest frustrations with youth ministry when we encourage young youth workers to have this mindset. Your comment about American Soldiers is not actually helpful either. I have military family and I can say without a doubt that many many people involved in the military do question why they are asked to do what they do. No they dont shoot their own but neither did I with Ted or Doug. Im just calling into question a piece of their talks that I was concerned about. Lastly I want to make sure you know I was certainly not on the sidelines for the convention. I was deeply engrained in the leadership, teaching and the overall leadership of the event. I only say that so that you know I have a very invested interested in training youth workers and making sure that we are theologically accurate and are teaching properly. But, I also want you to know I read through your comments multiple times and reread my blog a couple times too. If I came across in the blog or in this response defensive or if it looks like Im casting the first stone that troubles me. I dont want to be that guy and dont want to raise issues if they are non-existent. Ive gotten quite a few positive comments, notes and e-mails about this so I know Im not alone in thinking about it. But, it is different for everyone. My encouragement to you is to keep loving your youth pastor and following the Lord. God has used your story to grow a church and that is a testimony to his grace, his mercy and your commitment.
Lars Rood \\ Working to figure it all out
web: My Blog \\ Stream Youth \\ twitter \\ facebook \\
David- I just went back in a 4th time and reread my comments. I have softened some of it. Thank you for your comments again.
Lars Rood \\ Working to figure it all out
web: My Blog \\ Stream Youth \\ twitter \\ facebook \\
Lars,
Thank you for taking the time to soften your comments. I am glad that both of us have the mindset to soften comments when needed. Thank you for your leadership at Highland Park Presbyterian Church. I know the history of that church well as it has been a hallmark church for a struggling denomination that continues to seek its role in the mainline church. The trail has been blazed well for you by your predecessors and you will blaze new trails. Thank you for the conversation. I am reminded of Isaiah who said, “Come, let us reason together.” I hope we did just that. And we also did what your denomination does so well, we did it “decently and in order.” Praise be to God!
By the way, How does a good ol’ Pacific Northwest boy like you do in the throes of hot, humid, flat and no ocean within 300 miles Dallas, Texas? Go eat a great steak at Del Frisco’s for me! Peace!
Great post. I was there and felt similiar. I am always on board when someone (Fields) is helping saving Youth Pastors’ families. I wasn’t comfortable with the us vs. the church vein. I didn’t like the idea of sending Youth Pastors in to meetings with their pastors to “attack” bad expectations. I kinda felt like he was insinuating that Pastors and the church are trying to exploit Youth Pastors and our families. Do some Pastors have bad expectations? Sure, but at the end of the day we’re on the same team and most of the time want the same thing… The problem is when we expect different things… like Doug was saying. But, I wouldn’t have taken it to the level of “attack” as much as “correct,” “redirect,” “educate,” etc… I just am not comfortable of a YP going into the Senior Pastor’s office thinking “attack…”
Thanks David- I am always willing to be taught and challenged. Part of my hope with this blog is that it will always be a discussion.
Lars Rood \\ Working to figure it all out
web: My Blog \\ Stream Youth \\ twitter \\ facebook \\
Lars, I enjoyed some of your ideas at your shoestring seminar, although I have to admit I sensed a tinge of arrogance that I brushed off as “not knowing the guy”. But, after reading your piece on Haggard & Fields I wondered if my first impression was right. I hope not.
I walked in late and missed the Haggard interview, but I heard Fields and it was the highlight of my convention. I don’t know Doug (although I met him once and he was the nicest “big name” person I’ve ever met). I find it odd that a guy who has give his life (I think he said 30 years) to the church could have an identity issue. I’m not sure I track with that. I didn’t hear anti-church, I heard anti-wounding if anything. It would be great if the church were an ideal place where there were not sinful people and mixed motives, but that’s not reality. To have someone say, “be careful. care for your family. etc” is a great message for a young youth worker.
Also, I’m not sure I got the connection with the mega church. I work at a small church and he was talking to me. Don’t you work at a mega-church? I don’t think the wounding of a youth worker is a big church/small church issue.
When I listened to Doug I felt like, “finally, someone knows what I’m going thru. Maybe I’m being defensive because it was such a good message for me and others I spoke with.
I’ve never seen or heard of Doug flaunting his youth ministry “success”, but I’ve definitely seen others be jealous because of it. I hope that’s not the case with you.
I want to think deeply and will continue to think about this. But, from where I sat, I didn’t hear “church bashing” as much as I heard “I care about you guys and want you to win.” Funny how two people can hear different things.
Sean. Thanks for your comment. I hope that I dont come across as arrogant. Ive never been called that before but if this post seems that way that wasnt my intent. I loved what Doug said too. Protecting family and yourself is a huge thing and I always appreciate that message. My concern though is the us vs. them idea that some young youth workers might have heard. My point is only that I am concerned that the ecclesiology just isnt strong. We have to be careful in the YM world to both love the church and teach the church about how we need to be best taken care of. It was definitely not finger pointing at the smaller church since I am at a big church with a large youth staff. I am careful to realize that many smaller churches dont have the staffing resources i have I can leave and take my daughter to gymnastics and not worry if things will happen while im gone Unfortunately many smaller churches and youth pastors get stuck having to do it all Its hard to say no when you are the only one Much of what Doug said I teach my team. But, I never allow us in the youth department to ever feel like we are not a part of the overall church. So my point is I disagree with the cheating idea. If we have good boundaries and have taught healthy expectations from leadership then no one gets cheated and itll never be us vs them. Please see my other responses. I love Doug and what hes done. Im glad that the Haggards were there. My only concern is making sure we are teaching a biblical view if the church and ecclesiology so that it is fully realized by us youth workers and our students.
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Hi Lars…I hope to meet you someday.
Being a visible leader, I’m not new to criticism. I don’t love it, but I’ve learned to deal with it. At first read of your blog, I thought: “Are you really suggesting that this one message kicks me into the box of having a theological identity issue? Really? Wow, feels kind of like an extreme response especially when you state (twice in your blog), ‘It wasn’t his intended message.’” I’d be lying if I said I didn’t initially feel defensive. I also felt it was a cheap shot to tag my humorous, fictitious story into one where I was turning away a suicidal teenager. It felt like quite a stretch (or a pile-on). Regardless of personal/ministry boundaries, I would NEVER turn my back on a suicidal teenager.
I typically don’t respond to critical blogs because it just creates more unneeded chaos where hearts, tones and nuances aren’t heard. But, in this case, I thought I’d chime in and apologize to the youth worker community for what might have been heard (I would have done this sooner, but I’ve been at another conference from Monday till tonight and simply just now getting to my computer). I am sincerely sorry to the YS audience if I communicated anything that might be damaging to a young youth worker. In my message, my motive was to help, not to hurt. I’m fully aware that my spoken/written words are more than fallible, but I would never want a youth worker to think of their role within the church as a combative “us” vs. “them”. Never. Never. Never!
I love the church! I’ve given my life to the church and believe it’s the hope of the world. But, as you know, many of our youth worker peers have been deeply hurt by the church. Do I always love how a collective body hurts one another? No. Do I wish there was more of a mutual, care-taking community that had one another’s back and helped articulate boundaries and provide accountability to maintain them? Yep! Do I wish we didn’t need to talk about these issues because they were rare? Absolutely. But, similar to my own family whom I love dearly, I don’t just wish things would be different when my children intentionally or unintentionally wound one another—I encourage change.
In my message, I could/should have chosen better words to encourage change. In hindsight I wish I had, I’m really sorry I didn’t. I would be deeply grieved if a youth worker heard my message and thought, “Fields is against the church and that gives me permission to act that way too.” With all my heart I would hope that’s not the case. In the future, when I talk to hurting youth workers I will be wiser in my choice of words.
Blessings…
Doug. Thanks for responding. I’m going to put up a follow up post today. The more I’ve thought about this issue the more I think that better writing would have made my statements more clear and understandable. I intended to point out what I felt was an overall idea being stated that night that was a combination of quite a few things. It wasnt your message which I felt had such great things for youth workers to hear. I apologize if my statements came across poorly and shared an unfair or incorrect view of your point. I love youth workers. Many people needed to hear your message. But, I think there are some in embattled situations where a message that tells them to say “no” might actually hurt them more. I know too that your offhanded joke about a student was just that and I have been accused of being insensitive before too. I knew your point and I’m sure everyone else did too but it’s a joke that I don’t think should be told. I’m probably over sensitive to this issue having had too much of it in our community. Please look for my follow up post.
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I think I would have had the same reaction. Youth Ministry is part of the congregations ministry offerings. You as the staff person should look to the other staff as colleagues and friends. If that’s not the situation then you need to speak up.
The speakers at these large events are not very often coming from very average ministry settings. I know that Mark Yaconelli is one example of someone that continues to stay connected to small communities of faith. I’m sure there are other examples as well.
I just came across Lars’ blog post on the church and the YS convention; yes, I was in the back with Lars with some questions. I think many important things were said, though I do think Doug Fields’ presentation was much richer (and honestly way less weird) than the Haggards’. But, here, is the issue that at least my glares to Lars were trying to communicate: Christianity at its core is a dialectical faith; the very central dogma of the faith is constructed around these realities. For instance, we assert (at least some of us) that ordinary bread and wine (while ordinary) nevertheless becomes the real presence of Christ, we most centrally assert that Jesus is 100% human and nevertheless 100% divine. Central to Christianity are these generative contradictions, the contradiction, “though he dies, he lives again!” I think what was missing (and in all honesty is missing in most popular youth ministry material) is this “nevertheless” of the church. Fields helpfully reminded us that the church is a human institution; that like all human institutions, it cares more for its own self-survival than for your health and marriage. The church, like any institution, can become corrupt (i.e., the fuel for the Protestant Reformation). But though this is true and MUST be said–especially to idealistic young youth workers–we also need the nevertheless (which I think Lars and I had a harder time hearing). The church is a human institution with building programs, timecards, and all that crap, but it also, nevertheless, is a community of broken saints, a community with the vocation of witnessing to God’s action in the world. The church, like all the wonders of the Christian faith, is a contradiction (I know in our modern minds we think contradiction is bad, but theologically contradiction is the doorway into mystery, wonder, and beauty–into Paul’s all new reality through the contradiction of the crucified Christ). I think it is logical and helpful that Doug Fields has written about the negative elements of the institutional functioning of the church–he, after all, has written more and done more to help youth workers think about the institutional functioning of youth ministry (i.e. Purpose Driven, etc). I don’t think this disqualified the talk, not at all. I simply think that youth workers also need to have their imaginations ignited for how the church might destroy you if you don’t say “No” (this Fields did wonderfully), but nevertheless, they must also hear that while this is true this strange contradictory community is nevertheless the community that participates in God’s coming, the community that witnesses to the breaking in of God’s action. So while youth workers need to hear Fields’ words, what is also needed is for them to lean into the nevertheless and be invited to theologically imagine how the church acts and moves in the narrative of redemption. I think Martin Luther summed up this contradictory nature best, when after a number beers (Luther did his best theology after a number of beers) he said, crassly, “The church is a whore. The church is YOUR mother.” I know that Fields would not use these words (only Luther is that crass), but Fields’ talk (RIGHTLY) reminded youth workers of Luther’s first sentence; what Lars and I didn’t hear from the back of the room is the second…while surely it can be a whore, taking your marriage, keeping you from your kids–how is the church our mother? How is it the cradle of salvation and a broken witness to the newness of God’s activity?
Andy. Your comments were really helpful. I wish my original post was worth the time you put into replying. Thanks for using that brain of yours and coming off the ivory academic tower to push this conversation forward. You have proved the practicality of theological discourse and reflection.
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Good thoughts. This is one reason I avoid YM conferences in general. For the most part the show is run by megachurch youth pastor celebs. I’ve always doubted if intergenerational ministry and integrated participatory opportunities can happen in the megachurch context… These kinds of conferences seem to be answering questions that I am not asking.
Any ideas of alternatives? I’ve been hearing about “evolve” or something…
Priest. I think you can find the side you are looking for at NYWC. They are good people and bring in all kinds of youth workers. I know many of the speakers personally this year and its definitely a broad spectrum. It can be difficult to find what you want/need but they do a good job of helping. If you are ever thinking about coming I’d help you figure out who to meet. I know too at the Simple Youth Ministry Conference they do the same thing. But, there are also a ton of new nitch conferences. It just depends on what you want.
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One more response. There are a ton of smaller churches who are doing a bunch of intergenerational stuff. I met a bunch of new people last week and there is great stuff happening. And the mega churches are really honest too. They often point out their flaws.
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