POST UPDATE: I've decided to to take out the links to the church in this post. There are still hundreds of Churches like this one who cycle through youth workers. I advise you to make sure to ask all the questions I listed below and do the work so that you don't get stuck at one.
This is not going to be a nice post. People tend to like it when I take jabs at things so here it goes.
I've been involved in the world of Youth Ministry for a very long time as a volunteer, camp staff, educator and a youth pastor. Since I've been a youth pastor I have been involved with 4 amazing churches. In most of my youth ministry roles I've worked with pretty large teams of volunteers and paid staff. One part of my job that I've loved to get to do is to help people find youth ministry jobs.
There are a couple of good websites out there aimed at helping you find a youth ministry job. The best two are the Youth Specialties Job Bank and Churchstaffing.com These sites are usually where I direct people when they ask me for help. You can also find a lot of help from different school and seminary job boards. I've posted things on the Fuller Seminary board before and gotten great people.
Today I was doing some research on these sites because I have a couple people that I'm helping right now.
This is where I get frustrated. I'm so tired of checking on these sites and seeing the same churches posting the same positions for youth pastors over and over again.
I can only assume that there are one of two things happening. Either the church continually hires the worst youth pastors imaginable and they continue to quit or get fired or there is just something wrong with the church and the youth pastors keep getting scared away, burned out or broken. This is just my opinion because I don't know for sure but it just seems like they are constantly hiring for staff positions.
When I was a youth pastor in North County San Diego in my opinion it seemed this church had a new youth pastor every year and now that I've been gone from that area for 3 years it seems like they are still always hiring.
There are so many churches like this out there that just can't seem to get it together and hold onto youth pastors. I think anyone who gets sucked into one of these revolving door churches will either get burned out, spit our or wiped out and will never want to get involved in youth ministry again. I hate seeing great young youth ministers get hurt by lame leadership of churches.
Here's a couple of tips:
1. Ask why the person left before you
2. Find out how many youth pastors/directors they've had in the last 5 years
3. Meet with other current church staff and ask pointed questions about revolving doors
4. If there are other youth ministries in the area contact some youth pastors and ask them what their impression is of the church
5. Read the job description closely. If it says "will report in writing to the senior pastor each week" or "will work 55 hours a week and be available for overtime" you should probably ask questions about why those are there and what they mean.
6. Talk it over with people who have been involved in youth ministry for a long time. Get advice and ask for wisdom. Many of us have been in churches like that and we can help you out.
But whatever you do in my opinion I would say don't apply for a job at this church without doing some significant research as to why they appear to be a revolving door of youth ministry in North County San Diego. You might be tempted to go there for the beach but chances are you will end up like everyone else they hire and you'll only be there for a short time.
One last note. If I'm wrong about this church and someone from there would like to comment about that I'll post an apology here. I'm using them as an example for a huge problem in the youth ministry world and I if I'm wrong then I'll retract my statements. But, this is still a problem that happens to so many youth workers at many churches so if I have to take down this example I'll just find another one to put up.
That is so funny you mention them. As I have looked for jobs around So Cal they are one that I keep seeing pop up. Like for the last 4 years! they even sent me an e-mail once asking me if I wanted to apply for their middle school position.
At first I just thought they had a really large ministry that required a lot of paid staff. But frankly the longer they look for a person for that position the more toxic the church appears.
I too would be interested in hearing from anyone who has a history with that church that could defend it. I would rather thing positively about a church then negatively.
I wish I had been given such great advice before getting hired at my last church position which completely burned me. I didn’t realize until afterward getting hired (and the students actually did the calculations) that I was the 11th person in 6 years to be hired. I became part of a long line of damaged folks.
Thats what Im talking about. Its just so lame.
Typed with my thumbs. Forgive the spelling.
Derus. Thanks for confirming.
Typed with my thumbs. Forgive the spelling.
i remember once being given this advice for interviewing for a church position…
ask what problems the church has
ask what they are doing to fix them
ask how long the problems have been there
pretty good way of identifying systemic junk. if they can’t identify any problems, run.
thanks for the post, lars. i always like it when you take jabs…as long as it isn’t me
I think part of youth ministries IS being burned. It is inevitable. I have not met a veteran youth leader that doesn’t have at least a few scars. the bigger question is what are you going to do afterward?
As a long-time vocational youth ministry veteran, I would never even consider the job that you linked to. It screamed to me that the church is going to take, take, and take some more from you before they throw you away. Of course, the position sounded so important. I think that job description was written by some driven people-the worst kind to work for.
I almost want to have an intervention with them. get a bunch of youth pastors together and tell them they are notorious for burning through leadership.
Derus- You know I’ve been burned. I took a job once where they created a position they thought they wanted and I wasn’t very suited for the position they really wanted. They were good people though and I like to think that I was too. I was hurt but it was a very different scenario then the revolving door here. They made some changes and have done a great job holding onto the staff. I agree with you that most people get burned at some point. This particular church isn’t unique. There are a ton of churches just like it out there. I just hate knowing how many youth pastors are getting ruined because of them.
Lars ~ Thank you for this post! There are way too many people who are churned through the mill of youth ministry and come out tattered and broken. Unfortunately, if the attitude that youth ministry is just a stepping stone to a “greater” pastoral position in the church, then those of us who have a call to youth ministry will be facing an uphill battle.
I as well have some wounds that a just beginning to scar over from working at a church a couple of years back. Then it was a Jekyll & Hyde situation. I took a job as a youth director at a PCUSA church in small town in the Central Valley. I moved down there (not knowing anyone) and four months later our Pastor took a call at another church in Illinois. From almost the moment he left, the church completely changed. What complicated it ever more was that the interim pastor they called was completely against women in any type of ministry leadership. I felt like I asked all the right questions in the interview process, but I do feel that the church completely changed.
When I left I only wanted to step back into a church for worship only, having no desire to ever work for another church again. Today I am a youth director in a great church in the Sacramento area.
Abby. Thank you for posting this. Maybe I should change my blog title to youth ministry support group. I dont like hearing the stories but if I can help stop them from happening in willing. In glad you are now at a great church.
Typed with my thumbs. Forgive the spelling.
Great topic, but I would caution you against one specific item, and that is the church you listed as your “example.” I don’t think it is wise to call a church out as being unhealthy and a place that can’t hold it together, especially if you have never spoken with a member or staff person from there. Every church has her flaws, and your’s or mine is no exception. If you did your homework and asked the church board or senior pastor why they “churn ‘em out,” then maybe you are aware of their issues. I suspect that isn’t the case though. Thanks for your passion though for youth ministry…I both respect it and admire it.
David- Ive had a number of friends who have been members there and interviewed there. I agonized over calling out a church by name and tried to do all I could to make sure that if I was wrong I could retract my statements but ultimately I felt it was best to just list the church. Ive never publicly done something like this with my blog so it was hard but I just have too many friends who have gotten into bad youth ministry jobs and been torn apart by churches. I dont like being the guy who calls things out but Ive honestly heard so many stories and seen them hire so often that I just want to make sure people know that it might not be healthy and they should ask some real tough questions. Maybe things have changed there and its a good place. Even so their history should be analyzed.
Thanks for your comment.
Great tips. As I’m looking at a possible transition to another church those are insights I didn’t think about (and I’ve been around youth ministry 13 years serving 3 churches!). Thanks so much!
You need to be able to discern what are the written and unwritten expectations of a church, and don’t just listen to what they say, but who they are: history, etc…
I actually did a 5 day interview at this church mentioned, and there were so many red flags it was ridiculous. They said lots of great things like “we want to grow old as a staff together…” but everything they did screamed we will use you and toss you aside. The best thing I ever did was pull my name and not accept their offer to join them. I almost got lured in by the ocean…
You need to be smart, discerning and not afraid to ask them hard questions. You are interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you.
That’s what attracted me to Malibu Pres. They did things like offer a living wage, show me that in my package on top of 2 weeks vacation I had a “spiritual day of reflection”, church visitation Sundays, etc.
I also was given a support staff team and budget to actually do ministry well. Their “appreciation” budget for volunteers impressed me and made me think “wow, this church is going to care about me”
4 years in, I see problems and dysfunction, but generally speaking I have it pretty good. I visited one of my former churches the other day and felt suffocated just by walking onto the campus and talking to the staff. THey said things like “after I worked a 12 hour day leading VBS the youth pastor texted one of the kids to tell me to stay for the youth lock in because he couldn’t make it”
WHHHAAAA???? I was like this church needs an Alanon meeting or something…healthy boundaries are totally absent. Sad.
I would say that would be my other advice to young people (or even not so young) in ministry…get into some therapy and start digging through your junk. Many of us feel called by God and also by our desire to fix things in the world…which can come out of our pain and if you don’t have good boundaries and a sense of self in tact…it can be a world of hurt.
Oh, and a few more things:
One of the great things about therapy or spiritual direction or having mentors to meet with is that it’s soooo important to have people speaking into your life and who can say “nope, you shouldn’t be putting up with that”
Another thing is that I had lost hope in a not-toxic church existing. It was that jaded feeling some get after a 4th marriage. Similarly, every family has their problems, but not every family is a terrible and dysfunctional mess of things…and the church is the same way. I’m on my 4th church marriage and this one is going pretty well.
Funny…my sister worked at their school for one year as a 1st grade teacher, AND she’d had had 3 different principals in that year!!! She was sad to leave the kids and families she grew to love, but the environment was very toxic for the employees. She never felt valued or cared for.
Lars, you say you have served, among other capacities, as a volunteer. As a 19-year volunteer vet myself, I can’t say enough how much difference it makes when the paid staff is stable. I’ve come through only 3 churches in that time. Left one to move to my current city, left the second as it resembled the revolving-door mentality you lament here. I’ve been where I am now for almost 9 years, and in that time we’ve only had had 1 student ministry pastor resign. And he is still active in our church and still serves as a volunteer high school leader – he simply transitioned to a role with a church-assisting youth ministry in town.
Under healthy, stable paid leadership, volunteer staff are free to build relationships they have confidence will last. The majority of our leaders have served for many years – well beyond the stereotypical 18 months a paid youth pastor supposedly would last. I was able to tell this church was very healthy from the moment I first visited. I wish I could bottle up the DNA and inject it into every struggling youth ministry represented by the opposite end of the spectrum you present.
I’m a day late and a dollar short, but I agree with David about your calling a particular church out especially when you use hear-say and opinion as the basis for your expose. If the church or its senior pastor does not want to respond, it is their business. As a former business leader (and current pastor), I would suggest your post, while interesting, is borderline libelous and, thus, actionable if not lamentable.
Reading this post made me wonder if you are not a former youth pastor with this particular church with an ax to grind. And if you’re not, why expose this particular church without first-hand knowledge?
Michael. Thanks for your opinion. Ive never worked there but have friends who have applied and a sister in law who worked at their school. As far as libel goes I specifically said it was my opinion and it seems as well as saying Id retract my statements if I was wrong. No one in any church likes to be called out. I cars about the youth ministry world and dont want to see youth pastors get hurt.
Typed with my thumbs. Forgive the spelling.
Did anyone read the job description? 55+ hours a week? What is that? Do they offer to set up a cot for you at the church? That fact alone is enough to tell you all you need to know about the position and the church.
Thanks for this Lars. That is why I wrote several articles (Hosted by YS) on this very topic on hiring, firing, and helpful hints in getting hired in ym.
http://youthministrypro.com/ is a good start.
What a GREAT POST,
YM turnover is fairly high for a number of reasons.
I’m glad I found your blog, you are a great writer!
Keep up the great work and God Bless, If you have time , check out my site dedicated to Youth Ministry and Youth Ministry Lessons
Thanks Jamie. Ill check out your site today
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Hilarious- I just laughed out loud to your twit- it is so sad-