Ok so I’ve been waffling on this post for a while now because as some of you know I’m in the midst of a hiring process to bring on a new High school Director and two new class leads.  As I started this series I was in the midst of thinking through how to make the interview process better by giving out some tips to potential candidates.  But this post is different because this is the one that I know is going to come back to bit me as I give advice to people who will then use it against me to negotiate if I offer them positions.

Of course I’ve let my words get me into trouble before so I think I’m going to still put this up and just feel good that I provided ammo for people. 

Negotiation 101

Negotiating is a funny thing.  Some people have the skill to do it and others have no skills at all.  If you have the skill then looking through the topics listed below are probably second nature to you.  If you don’t have the skill this might seem like a daunting task.  You need to remember that the people on the other end of the negations have probably done this many times and they are ok with you asking all the questions you are going to ask.  I personally like to tell candidates that there are some things we can’t do but others we may find some room to wiggle and that this is their time to ask about everything and I won’t be offended by anything they ask about.

Let’s talk first about what “negotiation” is.  Usually people seem to get really hung up thinking that negotiatons are all about money.  Money is involved in the process but there are so many more things you need to be talking about during this phase of the interview/job offer.

Here’s a quick list that I put together that has all the things I think you should consider when you are negotiating: My advice is to think about these things and figure out for you where you would like things to end up and start negotiating from there.

Caution:  I usually tell people to be cautious in all of this.  You may have only one thing that you are thinking about and that is the bottom line salary number.  But, if the church is only able to give you a certain salary they may be able to compensate you more in other areas such as paying for school or providing extra vacation time for you to go speak at conferences or camps.  Be aware that there are many different forms of compensation.

Salary: Pretty simple how much is it right?  Wrong.  You may have a salary package that includes a “housing allowance” that is untaxable income.  So your salary might seem lower but actually be more than you think since you dropped out of a hiring income bracket.  A question to ask here too is what the schedule is for raises and bonusus and if there would ever be a chance of adding extra responsibilities for additonal pay.

Hours: Some churches have unwritten rules about hours.  I’ve been at churches where 50 was the        norm and one day off.  That’s not healthy.  Ask about expectations.

Medical:  Who do they cover? Just you? Wife? Family? What if you have more kids?  Deductables? Vision? Dental?  Ask questions about all of it.  Usually not negotiable but if you have needs mention them.

Benefits:  How do they handle retirement? Do they have a matching plan?  When are you vested? (Meaning how long does it take working there for you to get all the money they have invested for you.  Sounds weird but your financial people will know.  I’ve heard of people losing their jobs right before they were vested)

Vacation: This is both the (how may weeks do they give you) and (when can you use them)  Summer is hard as a youth pastor to take vacation time,  maybe your church has a policy that you have to be there over Christmas.  What about Spring Break missions trips.  It’s increasingly difficult to take vacation if you have kids that are in school but have ministry expectations during holidays.   You should also ask about if your vacation time rolls over.  Meaning if you don’t use it one year can you use it the next.

Comp time:  You just got back from a 4 day trip with Junior Highers can you take a day off afterwards and have it not count as vacation or personal time?  Or what about a two week trip during the summer can you take a few days off after it? Can comp time be accrued or do you have to use it right away.

Conference: Both can you go and not use vacation time and what money is available to pay for you to go.
Books: Do you have a budget to buy things to read to help you increase your skills, grow in your faith or keep up on what the students are reading?

Technology: Youth Pastors need to be mobile.  If you are meeting students in a coffee shop after school you should have a laptop so you can sit there and work before and or after.  That 5 year old PC laptop the church wants you to use is probably a piece of junk.  Ask for what you need.  Do you want to edit movies and manipulate photos?   You should also ask about cameras both video and still.  Chances are they already have them but if they don’t or you have a particular one you are comfortable with you should ask.

School:  If you don’t have an advanced ministry degree/seminary you should be working towards something.  You should try to take at least a couple classes a year.  You want the church to help you pay for it since they benefit and you want them to let you go take classes without using vacation or personal days. There are many forms of school maybe it’s taking communication classes or speaking help, maybe it’s getting coaching.  Seminary is great but there are many other forms of school that will benefit you and the church.

Study Leave:  You will need to leave and study.  Enough said. If you aren’t spending enough time with the Lord and having opportunities for growth you won’t be very useful to us in the long run.

Internships: Will you have any additional staff to work with.  Is there money for you to hire interns or other positions to help you.

Budgets: You should see them, know them, own them and be aware what they cover.  If you have dreams you can negotiate those during this time. I once negotiated an entire outdoor recreation program that I was passionate about starting before I went to that church.

Housing:  If you have kids and do youth ministry you need to live in the school district where your youth minsitry kids live.  If the church doesn’t agree with that then they don’t understand youth minsitry.  Negotiate help in housing if you need it.  This is easier at a church that can license/ordain you.  If not at least ask the question and see if they can help.

Moving Costs:  You should ask about them and get the church to help you.  Do some homework and have a reasonable plan.  Hiring the movers who pack everything and unpack it at your new house is probably more expensive than a church is willing to pay but if you are moving for a job you need to negotiate here.

Cell Phone: My bias on this one.  Being a youth pastor means that people will need to have access to you.  Churches should pay you for that access and  should pay your cell phone bill.

Office Hours: How much are you expected to be in the office.  Do you do your best work in other places? What if you’re out with kids.  How much do they need/want to see you?

Accountable too:  Who will you regularly meet with and how often?  Ask tough questions here.  Figuring out the accountability process is a good thing because it protects you.

Availability of leadership: How much accesibility will you have to the senior staff?  Ask this questions especially if you think you may want to be in a senior level position some day.  Getting face time with senior pastors is valuable.

Nights out: Ask about what the expectations are for you to be out.  This includes both youth ministry stuff as well as other meetings, retreats, camps, trips.

Transportation/Mileage:  This one gets overlooked a lot.  If you are driving your personal car on a ton of youth ministry events or even just around town how are you compensated for it?  What about gas?

Family Stuff:  I worked at a church that committed to send my wife and I on a marriage retreat every year. That was great.  I’m currently at a church that has a childcare option for people who work there with a greatly reduced rate.   You should ask about scholarships if your church has any on campus schools.

As usual if you have anything to add throw it in the comment section of this post and I’d love to respond.

Series: Finding a job and negotiating with a church.

Part 1: Looking for a job

Part 2: Approaching the church. Tips to get your resume read.

Part 3: Tips for Interviewing. What interviews to be prepared for.

Part 4: Negotiation 101.  All the things you should consider.

Interviewing is a difficult part of any job search. There are so many different way to approach this topic that I thought I’d simply start about by talking about what different types of interviews you will go through and tips for each one. The way I see it is there are about 8 different interviews you will go through. Only a couple will be “formal” interviews but you have to know that all of them are important.

Here’s the 8 different interviews:

1. First Phone call- This is sort of a “feel out” type of call.  We probably haven’t listened to your talk yet so this might be the first official contact.  It’s our chance to get to know you and see how we interact.  I probably don’t need to say how important this call is.  I recommend making sure that you schedule a time for this call and a location that will make sure you have no distractions.   Probably goes without saying too that if we are calling you we’d really like it if you pick up.  Having to leave a voice mail message at a scheduled interview time sends me a pretty bad message.    A couple key tips for this call is to try and keep your answers short yet make sure to share anything you think is important to get yourself known and through the interview onto the next stage.   There is a fine line between a solid answer and a long winded one.  I recommend keeping your answers short by asking questions “Do you want to know more about that?” or “This is a longer story but let me give you the main details and if you want more just ask.”  Another good tip is to say “If I go on to long with my answers just stop me and ask a different question, you won’t hurt my feelings as I recognize you want to get to know me and don’t have a lot of time.”  It’s also really important in this interview that you show me that you know something about my church and the youth ministry.  Letting me know that you’ve been on our church website, that you have listened to some of the recent talks or at least are aware of our upcoming summer plans.  If you have done some research about the neighborhood or the denomination that is a plus.  The questions you ask about this stuff show me how serious you are about the possibility of working with us.

2. Committee Conference Call- Most people would say that this is the most important interview.  At this point we have all read your resume, watched or listened to your message and formed a little bit of an opinion about you.  We have asked ourselves the question “Do we think this person could fit this position?” and we might already have an answer.  If you’ve done your homework you know quite a bit about our church and the youth ministry and that will help you answer some of the questions we throw at you.  Like the first interview you should keep your answers short and let them ask follow ups if they want.  You should be yourself but also recognize that we are looking to see if you could be effective here.  Probably the best way to do this is to put yourself in the role of the position as you answer questions.  If you are applying for a junior high youth pastor you should answer questions from that perspective.  Another tip is to have a pen and paper handy and when you are introduced to the committee write their names down and try to memorize their voices so when they ask questions you can reference their name in the answer.  Remember too that each person on the committee comes with some sort of thought about how they think things should be done.  Be careful not to be too focused on one particular thing because it might push those people away.  The type of questions you’ll want to ask them at the end of your phone call need to be questions that can be broad enough to engage them all.  Don’t ask a question about salary or about how often you might meet with your potential supervisor.  Ask about the community, the history, the needs of the ministry.  Remember that most of the people interviewing you in this stage will probably be parents and staff with a highly vested interest.  I’d almost always ask the question “What is something that you think the ministry needs to focus on right now to reach students who aren’t being reached?”

3. First live contact- Depending on where you are coming from this is either a short or a long interview.  If you are driving in to meet with a search committee this interview might only last as long as someone meeting you in the parking lot and walking you to a conference room.  However, if you are being flown in this interview might take up a much more significant amount of time.  Depending on who is picking you up (Yes you should ask who it is) will depend on how to approach this interview.  I’m going to push past the “you drove in and have 3 minutes with someone” interview and focus almost solely upon you getting picked up at the airport.  There are a couple of things you need to do right away in this interview.  First, be aware of what you are wearing.  Find out about the culture you are going to and dress appropriately.  Find out before hand where you are going after being picked up and see if you will have any time to change. If not I say dress in a slacks, shirt and shoes.  Don’t wear a tie (this is a personal preference) because we need to picture you as a professional youth worker.  Remember that  this person will most likely be on the search committee which means you have already had some contact with them via the conference call.  You should remember their name.   This particular interview is almost exclusively for you to ask questions.  Remember that any answer you give them to a question will most likely never make it back to the committee so use this time strategically to find out more about the community, church and youth  ministry.  Have a set of questions ready to go that show you are interested.

4. Search Committee formal interview- Again this is the first face to face contact you’ve probably had with the whole committee.  They are excited to get to know you and see if you might fit as their new (whatever the position is)  I say put yourself in the mindset of that position as you answer questions.  This interview has a lot of fine lines that you will have to gauge how close you want to come to.  You might have a passion for a particular area of ministry and be really excited about that but they also want to see that you can run the ministry they are invested in right now and that you affirm where its at.  Even if they take pot shots at the current ministry and leaders (which there is a high chance they might do) you should be careful to be very supportive and encouraging about what they have.  During this formal interview your personality needs to come out so that the committee gets to know you.  At the same time you have to make sure you don’t dominate the conversation too much.  Once again it’s good to say “stop me if I go to long I’m pretty passionate about this and can get long winded” or something like that.  Remember that most likely the committee is not made up of professional interviewers so they may not be uncomfortable cutting you off.   You’ll want to answer the questions in a way that both shows you know what you are talking about and you are willing to learn.  There is a need for humility and humbleness in this interview that I think is overlooked often.

5. Interview with current staff-  This interview is typically the most fun.  Depending on the size of the staff you might end up with a pretty good size group of people.  Chances are they like each other and have an informal way of communicating.  What they are looking for in this interview is simple.  The question they are all asking is “Will you fit in?” or “Can this person lead us?”   I can only say that the best way act in this interview is judge how to respond based on how they are interacting.  You can be more informal but you should be careful.  Think of this interview as a first date.   You want to be you but at the same time you just met and you need to be perceptive about who they are.   This is a good interview to ask pointed questions of this group like “What do you guys need from a leader?” or “What are some things you want this person to focus on?”  They probably did not get to be a part of the search committee and so this is their only chance to interact with you and share what they think.

6. Interview with Senior Pastor/Executive Pastor or director-   At this point you are at a more formal interview.  They will probably ask you some theological questions and you should make sure you have some solid answers.  It’s important that you’ve done your homework on the church.  Know what that particular church/denomination believes.  You will want to ask questions that show you have thought about it a bit.  Chances are you might not interact much with the senior pastor or the executive director if you get the job so this might be your only shot.  Ask questions about the youth department.  You can ask them how they support the youth ministry.  How they interact with the youth staff.  What role youth ministry has in the church.

7. Final conversation with the Youth Pastor or head of the search committee-   This might be a coffee or a drive back to the airport.  Chances are the youth pastor is the person you have spent the most time interacting with.  You can ask any follow up questions about the weekend, ask about the process, even how you did if it seem appropriate.  Don’t underestimate this last impression as it might be your final chance before they decide who to hire.

8. Bonus Inteview- What to do at a meal? This is something to be aware of.  When you go to eat with someone know that how you order is being watched.  You don’t want to come across as indecisive when you order.   Even standing in line if you are getting a burrito is important.  Ask questions about the community where they took you to eat.  It’s usually at these informal meals that it is appropriate you ask a lot of questions.

So there you go.  Just some tips.  One final note is to say just be who you are but do it in a way that maximizes your strengths.

Series: Finding a job and negotiating with a church.

Part 1: Looking for a job

Part 2: Approaching the church. Tips to get your resume read.

Part 3: Tips for Interviewing. What interviews to be prepared for.

Part 4: Negotiation 101.  All the things you should consider.